Hi folks,

Just been reading my copy of Inland Waterways News & saw the feature on Dunrovin.

I am not too sure whether I am behind this project as set out. There is a suggestion of a mortgage being taken out to facilitate this "White Elephant".

I did not know any of the founders of the IWAI, although, I do feel that they have started a great organisation, even if we have lost our way at times. I wonder if at the time the bequest was being made, Cyntia felt that what was there already was to be used and not some large spend required.

I have no expertise when it comes to developing sites. But recently I have become a banker along with all the other tax payers - against my own will. (Thank you Fianna Fail & Greens)

Now I learn that IWAI at National level is the proud owner of Dunrovin, complete with tenant - and now I am (being a member of IWAI) a landlord as well. What additional liabilities does this place on the association?

Naturally, the responsible officers will have ensured that the tenancy is registered with the PRTB (Private Residental Tenancies Board) You did did'nt you?

Now who is going to pay for this project? Well it seems the members are going to foot the bill. Did we join IWAI & pay our fees in order for it to be squandered on a development where we have no access to?

Is there is any support for this proposal among the wider membership to "develop and restore the site and to construct a new headquarters building for the association", If so, then lets have a vote of the membership.

Let there be no rush. Sure has'nt there been 10 years of discussion in Athlone, while a decision to offload the property to the National Executive was taken. Does the National IWAI actually want/need this facility??

If so, show us the proof and the justification for such a huge undertaking. Did Athlone branch want to do this work themselves, but just not have the financial resources?

If so, this could look a bit like slight of hand. Making it look like a national IWAI project and spending National financial resources on what is essentially an Athlone Branch wish list.

Now Dave, before you go on a mad one, I know this is not an official IWAI channel, but it would be interesting to hear what the opinions of "IWAI members" on this channel might.

So calling all members - lets have your view. Put your view out there and especially tell your own branch how you feel (Good or Bad) about this proposal.

Has a final decision on this white elephant been taken?

There is a suspicious lack of any detail in terms of the actual financial breakdown of where the euro's are going to come from.

So now Dave, tell us the rest of the story, your article states "It is intended to finance this from a conbination if the associations reserves, grant aid and a small mortgauge"

How much will come from the associations reserves?
How much will come in the form of grant aid? Who is providing the grant aid?

I hope you are not depending on Govt Dept/Local Authority. Did you not hear - we are in a recession. IMF and the gang said there is no money left to be spent on luxuries.

What is the definition of a small mortgage? My dictionary was unable to quantify what exactly a small mortgage is. Will you now tell us all?

Your article also states "Branches will be EXPECTED to contribute from their reserves to the building fund, as all branches and the Association will benefit from the project". How much will it cost each branch? What will be different after this resource comes about? How will my branch benefit?

You mention that work parties and voluntary labour will form part of the project as will be the ongoing upkeep and maintenance.

Dave, will you tell the audience what the annual projected running costs of such a facility will be? AND who is going to pay for these ongoing running costs.

A better and more transparent way to finance this project would be to set up a special fund and invite IWAI members to contribute to it directly. That way you could feel that you are spending the members money as they want you to spend it. Naturally, all amounts collected over and above the construction costs could be used on the running costs for future years. It would also negate the need for a "Small Mortgage". Everyone's a winner.

Now if there is a "Sugar Daddy" out there who wants to give away a large chunk of some of his money for such a project, then that is a different story.

Regards

Kieran

Kieran, clearly you were NOT at the A G M of the Association where this was
discussed in great detail AND the vast majority of ORDINARY MEMBERS who took
the time to travel to the AGM agreed with the proposed project. The
Architect of the project was in attendance and gave us, who attended the A G
M , a comprehensive resume of the project.
Your suggestion of a slight of hand by Athlone Branch is not worthy of a
comment.
Your comment about a " White Elephant" is also unfair
I commend the Project.

Stephen Maher

Gerda
Not a member of Athlone branch

Hi Stephen,

You are right of course - I could'nt make the AGM. So I dont know how many of the 4000approx

OOPS! don't know what happened there.

2nd attempt.

Hi Stephen,
You are right of course - I could'nt make the AGM. So I dont know how many of the 4000 approx of the membership were present when this discussion was taking place. I'm sure that you will agree it is a big undertaking - or maybe I should'nt take that for granted.

But there has not been much info (a bit like the Bye Laws debate last summer) from the ececutive to the general membership.

So to the executive members of IWAI National Council and the representatives of each individual branch from Athlone to Slaney, I say this: "Do you really believe that you are acting on behalf the bulk of the existing membership when you talk of taking out a loan on our behalf". Please do not borrow on my behalf.

Oh! And something else - do not contact me looking for money for this project, do not request an increase in my annual membership fee to fund this unnessary development.

Regards

Kieran

Hi Stephen,

Do you recall what the associated costs and the sources of these costs was?

If so, perhaps you would care to share them here with the rest of us.

The mention of a mortgage begs the question "From Where"? Apparently, the banks are not lending at the moment. Unless someone has already arranged this for us as well.

Regards

Kieran (Kearns)

When I read the article in the Newsletter my reaction was exactly the same as Kieran's.

I agree completely with all his points.

John (IWAI member)

When a Battery runs completely flat it is possible to charge it the wrong
way ,the result is that the negative becomes positive ,could this process
apply to people ? Paul



From: Kieran Kearns [mailto:Kieran[AG]svp.ie]
Sent: 12 June 2011 14:33
To: waterways[AG]iwai.ie
Subject: RE: [waterways] Dunrovin - Millstone or Milestone?



Hi Stephen,



You are right of course - I could'nt make the AGM. So I dont know how many
of the 4000approx

Quote:

Paul Garland
When a Battery runs completely flat it is possible to charge it the wrong
way ,the result is that the negative becomes positive ,could this process
apply to people ? Paul

Not sure that the above is fully in keeping with the injunction at the top of the forum home page to be

Quote:

civil, courteous & forgiving

Or was it a reply to my 12V battery query?

Wires crossed as it were?

John (still an IWAI member)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 16:38 by John.Kinsella1.

Hi Paul,

Nice to hear from you again.

I'm not quite sure what your point is. Care to elaborate?

Thanks.

Kieran

It is indeed right to question the viability of any project before proceeding. Sure there can be risks with everything in life, but you carefully and prudently weight the pros and cons and make a considered decison.

The proposals for Dunrovin were presented in some detail at the AGM and thrown open to the floor for comment. Of the considerable numbers of members present there was not one single voice who spoke against the proposals, rather instead there was great support for such a progressive and innovative proposal. The location right bang smack in the middle of our most active waterways, excellent central road access, connections to founding fathers, etc, right beside WI moorings for boat access, it just doesn't get any better.

My personal vote is a "Milestone".

PS: Comparisions with Ireland Inc problems are erronious and disingenuous , no member would incur any personal liability whatsoever. Financing contracts would be with the LTD company, not members (ie shareholders).

OceanFroggie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2011 17:07 by OceanFroggie.

With ?4000 members the AGM can only seat a small % of the membership.
Perhaps the most committed?

Are their opinions necessarily representative?

I would like more information on the finances of the proposed development.

Are members entitled to this information?

Thanks

John

Hi Noel,

Thanks for your view on this matter. If you were there that night, can you recall where the money was going to come from? and in what proportions.

Daves article is very light when it comes to providing information on the financial side of things. One has to wonder if that is intentional.

I may be wrong, but I assume that a serious analysis of the finance required to develope Dunrovin and maintain it on an ongoing basis has been done. I also assume that the relevant finance has been identified (and quantified). Talk of "Small Mortgages" and "Branches EXPECTED" to contribute are simply not enough in the way of detail.

I would not be great on the rules & regulations (Legal), but I believe that the executive have a moral responsibility to the wider membership to consult with them on the merits of pressing ahead with this project. To take out a mortgage to assist with this development is to place a burden of debt on this Association for this generation of members and possibly future generations as well.

When the current big wigs are gone, who will be left with the potential headache of servicing such a debt?

Will IWAI be able to sell off this asset in the future if it cannot meet with the repayments? Or is there some clause in the bequest that can prevent this from happening? What then?

Maybe The Commissioners for Charitable Bequests could clarify this tomorrow?

All very interesting stuff.

Regards

Kieran

Quote:

John.Kinsella1
With ?4000 members the AGM can only seat a small % of the membership.
Perhaps the most committed?

Are their opinions necessarily representative?

I would like more information on the finances of the proposed development.

Are members entitled to this information?

Hi John, yes as much as the attendees of say LDYCs AGM are representative, and yes more detail on finances will be available to members well before a sod is turned. This will only proceed to fruition if the chips remain stacked up correctly (bad choice of analogy) Noel

OceanFroggie

Hi Kieran, I would expect total transparency as this proposal seeks to go through it's phases. As to big wigs, there is no such thing, just dedicated volunteers who are servants, incurring significant personal costs in the line of their personal giving. IWAI is not a quango, there is no gravy, just service, and hopefully human friendships.

OceanFroggie

Hi Noel,

Sure we are all friends at the end of the day - just with sometimes different opinions on subjects.

Regards

Kieran

Quote:

Kieran Kearns
Sure we are all friends at the end of the day - just with sometimes different opinions on subjects.

Just like every married couple on the planet!

Cheers

OceanFroggie

Like Kieran, I was'nt at the AGM. I don't have any particular gripes about the project, but, for geographical reasons, I can't see it being of much use to most branch's. I would have concerns if membership subs had to rise to pay for it though...!

M(W&W)F

Hi Kieran My point was simply that a negative view an easy stand to take, you say that you did not attend the AGM ,the last time you had serious issues with the Executive I invited you to come and attend an executive meeting and to get involved ,you did neither. Now the Association is reaching a Milestone by providing a facility for all our members to enjoy you are again engaging in lengthily posts. I again invite you to get involved or have the grace to let those who give time and energy freely for the benefit of the members get on with it . I sense that you do not believe the vast majority of members deserve a place they can call the home of the IWAI and take pride in it. We were delighted to accept the legacy and without it we could not even contemplate this venture . Regards Paul

Hi Paul,

The length of my post, or that of any other contributor for that matter is not relevant.

You stated: "Now the Association is reaching a Milestone by providing a facility for all our members to enjoy"........ But how can we enjoy it? If you mean an occasional visit as we cruise through that territory, then that could be a rare occasion for most of the membership.

You also stated: "I sense that you do not believe the vast majority of members deserve a place they can call the home of the IWAI and take pride in it." Well, that may be your belief.......I just happen to think that we (the membership) are about to be saddled with the costs of this facility.

If you genuinely belived in fair play, you would probably accept that a project as big as this proposal should only proceed with the actual approval & support of the majority of the actual membership. Otherwise it may come back to haunt the IWAI at some point in the future, particularly if the development ends up being grossly unde-rutilised.

Also, go ahead and prove me wrong on this one. Have a vote/referendum of the membership and go with the concensus of the majority. I would be quite happy to be wrong on this occasion.

I am now waiting for the tirade of abuse to start flowing telling me that paper voting is old fashioned, too expensive, time consuming etc. A few well intentioned volunteers could deal with this process within 2 months. That is to say distribute details of the pros & cons, circulate ballot papers, organise a fair count with a scrutineer who is above reproach. Let me know if you would like some assistance to facilitate this process - I'd be happy to oblige.

Regards

Kieran

I remember PG's dream of a base for the IWAI as published in IWN some time back. I think COS was his ideal place. It looks now like Dunrovin is a DoneDeal. I believe it to be a good idea provided all the pros and cons have been debated and discussed which they may have been by a select group. Were They?

I would be concerned about the local impact of such a building. When it was discussed here before I suggested that if it were a joint effort with the local community then locals would have a vested interest in keeping an eye on it and using it as a community centre. Now it may be "that building belonging to those rich boaters".

Running costs will include security,insurance,maintenance of grounds and buildings,cleaning of toilets and electricity. Electricity costs are high using a heat exchanger. If toilets are accessible from outside ,who will be using them? Ditto the barbecue area? Will this mean full time cleaners and outside staff?

If there is to be a small mortage, does this mean cleaning out the branches of all their funds????

The IWAI was unable to fund Colin Becker's wages for more than one year. How can it fund this building now and into the future?

The architect may call it a low maintenance building etc., but he would ,wouldn't he?

PJ