I know that there have been a few threads mentioning the possibility of Fracking in Ireland.
I have just watched a documentary regarding Fracking called Gasland made by a Josh Fox ( it got nominated for an oscar for best documentary) I would encourage anyone living in the proposed drilling areas to watch it. If this is allowed to happen it is not just Fermanagh and Lough Allen that will have a major problem. As some of the run off from the chemicals used may have a detrimental effect throughout the system and not just to consumption, but possibly to running gear and GRP hulls. I wonder do we as an organization have a view on this and are we making any representations to government before its to late. We do have an environmental brief as part of our activities so we do have a right to lobby.

AJ

Scary,aint it? Andy I'm sorry to tell you ,Irish people just don't care. We are the most apathetic country in the world. Look at the trouble elsewhere against corrupt government.
We haven't strung up one single former government minister,banker or developer.Have we had one single riot?

When boat hulls are paper thin ,eaten by chemicals in the water,Logh Allen,Lough Key and anything North of Athlone a no-go area, we might act then.

It'll be too late then to tell them to frack off.

Sure it'll be great fun being able to light the water coming from your taps. You just won't be able to drink it.

PJ

The IWAI wrote to the government last year raising its concerns and stating the associations position.

By conincdence and unrelated, since then two Irish local authorities have voted to ban fracking in their counties (Co Clare was one of them). Some EU countries have already banned this mining practice. We are pushing an open door and so far it seems likely this state may also ban the process.

OceanFroggie

Quote:

Andy Jordan
I know that there have been a few threads mentioning the possibility of Fracking in Ireland.
I have just watched a documentary regarding Fracking called Gasland made by a Josh Fox ( it got nominated for an oscar for best documentary) I would encourage anyone living in the proposed drilling areas to watch it. If this is allowed to happen it is not just Fermanagh and Lough Allen that will have a major problem. As some of the run off from the chemicals used may have a detrimental effect throughout the system and not just to consumption, but possibly to running gear and GRP hulls. I wonder do we as an organization have a view on this and are we making any representations to government before its to late. We do have an environmental brief as part of our activities so we do have a right to lobby.

AJ

I'm not happy with unconditional opposition to any technology eg nuclear power or in this case fracking.

I'd be much more impressed by a careful engineering analysis than by some of the alarmist websites I found when I googled.

There were lots of numbers - 100's of thousands of gallons of liquid containing methyl alcohol or ethylene glycol.

I didn't see any mention of the concentrations and both are major ingredients of antifreeze.

I hope the Govt do this right - relentless heavy regulation not a ban.

John

What is the association's position on Fracking? Who developed it? and with what authority from the members?

I do not think the association should take a position either for or against without consulting as I am sure there is a range of views among the membership.

That's a question I'd like an answer to . Froggie has made an interesting statement about a letter.

What's in it? WHAT IS OUR POSITION ON FRACKING?

Did we get an acknowledgement from the government?


Pj

Quote:

John.Kinsella1

Quote:

Andy Jordan
I know that there have been a few threads mentioning the possibility of Fracking in Ireland.
I have just watched a documentary regarding Fracking called Gasland made by a Josh Fox ( it got nominated for an oscar for best documentary) I would encourage anyone living in the proposed drilling areas to watch it. If this is allowed to happen it is not just Fermanagh and Lough Allen that will have a major problem. As some of the run off from the chemicals used may have a detrimental effect throughout the system and not just to consumption, but possibly to running gear and GRP hulls. I wonder do we as an organization have a view on this and are we making any representations to government before its to late. We do have an environmental brief as part of our activities so we do have a right to lobby.

AJ

I'm not happy with unconditional opposition to any technology eg nuclear power or in this case fracking.

I'd be much more impressed by a careful engineering analysis than by some of the alarmist websites I found

when I googled.

There were lots of numbers - 100's of thousands of gallons of liquid containing methyl alcohol or ethylene glycol.

I didn't see any mention of the concentrations and both are major ingredients of antifreeze.

I hope the Govt do this right - relentless heavy regulation not a ban.

John

The EPA released a full report on DEC 8 2011 available on their website its heavy going John but for the first time links Fracking to ground water contamination.

"The EPA's found that compounds likely associated with fracking chemicals had been detected in the groundwater beneath a Wyoming community where residents say their well water reeks of chemicals.

"Health officials advised them not to drink their water after the EPA found hydrocarbons in their wells.

"The EPA announcement has major implications for the vast increase in gas drilling in the U.S. in recent years. Fracking has played a large role in opening up many reserves.

"The industry has long contended that fracking is safe, but environmentalists and some residents who live near drilling sites say it has poisoned groundwater."

AJ

For my sins of the past and my geographical location I have responsipility for devoloping the Associations policy through a series of meetings and bringing the results to the executive ,who for clarity ,are directors of The Inland Waterways Association of Ireland a Company incorporated in Ireland .The Directors asked me to voice our concerns at the unproven and potentialy damaging effects that large scale Hydraulic Fracturing in the Lough Allen Basin and other areas .I wrote to Minister Rabbite on behalf of the Association expressing our fears and asking for a five year moritorium until the process was properly evaluated. I received a comprehensive reply assuring us that no exploration licence would be issued until all concerns were addressed and the EPA approved the process .I have in addition to the above meetings I met with Leitrim County Council with our concerns . If any of the Branchs need further information please contact me and indeed if any individual members wish to assist in the evulation process contact their branch and perhaps become the information link for their members Regards Paul

Hello Paul, Many thanks for your prompt and comprehensive reply. It looks like we are well represented.

I agree with the sentiments that fracking is unproven and has a high risk of pollution.

I agree that all avenues must be examined before and if, fracking is to be allowed.

I believe the mining company have indicated that no chemicals will be used. I believe this to be a smokescreen. When fracking, with just high pressure water, fails ,the mining company will then ,from many historic precedents, be allowed use chemicals.

Mining companies are not to be trusted. I been on the fringe and closer since Tynagh Mines started in the early sixties.
I am not opposed to mining. Tynagh brought great economic benefit to East Galway. Ditto, Tara Mines to
Meath and surrounding areas.

PjN

I'm astonished to hear through the forum that the association has a policy on fracking.
Why wasn't it published on the website? in the magazine? in a press release?
Very strange!

Michael

Yes, it's one of the features of our political structure.
We have opinions and/or policies on things that the membership may not necessarily agree with.
It comes down to whether we trust the people we elect to represent us, or not, really.
I doubt whether there's anything we can do to change the way things are done, which I confess, I'm not entirely comfortable with.
By and large, however, I believe those who have been elected have the right intentions, which is 3/4 of the battle.
They are hamstrung by the size of the organisation and the diversity of opinion held within the ranks, so have to accept they're going to upset some of us, no matter what they do! This is a particularly emotive issue, so the upset is likely to be felt more.
For what it's worth, the concentration of glycols that may, or may not, end up being used in the process, is not important.
Used coolant from your car engine has to be brought to an approved treatment facility. It may not be disposed of in the drains.
This is very dilute, but still considered an unacceptable environmental risk!
Why then should big business be allowed to pump it in large volumes into our rivers, from where it'll have to be extracted before Dublin can drink the water, even if there are NO other effects (unlikely IMHO)?
I'm coming over all NIMBY. Let someone prove the process, using environmentally sound methods, somewhere else first.
Then, once the long term effects are proven, we can make an informed assessment of the risk to our own environment!

Duncan

Hi Duncan.

Car antifreeze is presumably full of contaminants..

But methyl alcohol and ethelene glycol seem relatively harmless - look at the Wikipedia pages.

Obviously drinking either unwise but diluted sufficiently not a problem from what I have read.

And alcohol evaporates....

John

PS where did the concern about GRP boat hulls dissolving come from PJ????

Quote:

Duncan
Yes, it's one of the features of our political structure.
We have opinions and/or policies on things that the membership may not necessarily agree with.
It comes down to whether we trust the people we elect to represent us, or not, really.
I doubt whether there's anything we can do to change the way things are done, which I confess, I'm not entirely comfortable with.
By and large, however, I believe those who have been elected have the right intentions, which is 3/4 of the battle.
They are hamstrung by the size of the organisation and the diversity of opinion held within the ranks, so have to accept they're going to upset some of us, no matter what they do! This is a particularly emotive issue, so the upset is likely to be felt more.
For what it's worth, the concentration of glycols that may, or may not, end up being used in the process, is not important.
Used coolant from your car engine has to be brought to an approved treatment facility. It may not be disposed of in the drains.
This is very dilute, but still considered an unacceptable environmental risk!
Why then should big business be allowed to pump it in large volumes into our rivers, from where it'll have to be extracted before Dublin can drink the water, even if there are NO other effects (unlikely IMHO)?
I'm coming over all NIMBY. Let someone prove the process, using environmentally sound methods, somewhere else first.
Then, once the long term effects are proven, we can make an informed assessment of the risk to our own environment!

Duncan

It never ceases to amaze me that the Assoc, or the Executive, or Council or even the various branches, constantly miss opportunities to disseminate information on this channel. I accept that its not an OFFICIAL comms channel, but surely getting info to some members is better than to none at all. I dont think I've missed a branch meeting in the last 2 years and I have no recollection of the subject of Fracking ever being mentioned...!!

M(W&W)F

Mick,Perhaps a letter to branches explaining the whole thing would help.I have not seen any discussion either in council reports. I will be asking at the next Derg Brach meeting if our coucil delegate has heard anything about it.
The response to this post has been sparse. Perhaps a lot of posters think it won't affect them.

The information initially came from Noel Griffen. I have searched the list of IWAI officers on this site and can't find his name. Maybe I missed it.
Is the list out of date? If so, why is it not updated?

Paul Garland is an officer of The Association.

Nowhere on this site are the Executive described as directors of a limited company. Or did I miss that too?

Yet ,twice, on this topic ,we have been reminded about the directors .

Are there two IWAIs, one for the elite and one for the plebs?


PjN

PJ wrote....

> Nowhere on this site are the Executive described as directors of a limited
> company. Or did I miss that too?

Colin>>>Actually PJ, it is. It's in the Articles of Association, there to
read if you want.

> Yet ,twice, on this topic ,we have been reminded about the directors .

Colin>>>>IWAI was formed into a Company Limited by Guarantee on 26th May
1982 - almost 30 years ago, so this old news. Under Irish law, companies
have directors. For the first 25 years or so, there were four directors,
the Pres, VP, Hon Sec and Hon Treas. A few years ago the membership voted
to change the structure somewhat to bring it more into line with best
practice and expanded the number of directors so that the executive
committee (which only really came into being after the big meetings in
Tullamore in the early noughties) became a board of directors.

> Are there two IWAIs, one for the elite and one for the plebs?

Colin>>>>I think thats grossly unfair.

Colin Becker
GMY Chang Sha

PJ,

My point's a bit more general than that and I'm definitely not having a go at council delegates or members of the Executive. I'm merely pointing out that we, as an association, have a resource here that just is'nt being used to get info out to the membership.....!!

M(W&W)F

Colin, If the officers of the association decide to go solo on fracking, A MAJOR TOPIC,without reference to
the members, without informing the members after a decision was taken,or after writing to a government minister and recieving a reply, what elso am I supposed to think?

I expect our directors to get on with the day to day affairs of the association. They needn't contact members for every tittle tattle.

A major international topic of interest and concern to a lot of people should not be the subject of a solo run by the directors.

Then we have to learn about all the above on an open forum.

I stand by what I said.


Pjn

PJ,

I assume some branch sent it to council who set the Executive Hound on the Rabbitte. Hardly a solo run if so as I believe thats how we're supposed to work. Again, my quibble is, there's little point in the Assoc having policy's if no one knows they exist. This is the sort of issue which, in a boating/branch location context, is very easily going to get lost or shelved where other more pressing local issues exist.

M(W&W)F

Perhaps, John, but I think it somewhat unlikely.
You see, the cooling system in a car is sealed, so any contaminants will be metallic... iron, or aluminium, in most cases, sourced from the materials of which the engine is made. Given the longevity of the average engine, these must be in VERY small quantities. The discolouration is actually down to the minerals present in tap water, which many manufacturers say you shouldn't use, nowadays. You get a similar thing in the bottom of your kettle...
TBH I personally don't believe in most of these freely available "hazardous waste products", but if I have to play by bizarre "Green" rules then, so should foreign mining companies, whose contribution to the perceived problem is going to be several orders of magnitude greater!
That's not to say I approve of flushing these products, by the way. But the day is coming when you'll have to account for where the product has gone and will have to pay for any discrepancy between what was originally purchased and what you dispose of responsibly and that, I'm afraid, is going too far!

Duncan

Fair enough Duncan.

I'm just wondering whether small concentrations of methyl alcohol /ethylene glycol are really a problem,,,

And where the suggestion of damage to GRP hulls comes from.

John

Quote:

Duncan
Perhaps, John, but I think it somewhat unlikely.
You see, the cooling system in a car is sealed, so any contaminants will be metallic... iron, or aluminium, in most cases, sourced from the materials of which the engine is made. Given the longevity of the average engine, these must be in VERY small quantities. The discolouration is actually down to the minerals present in tap water, which many manufacturers say you shouldn't use, nowadays. You get a similar thing in the bottom of your kettle...
TBH I personally don't believe in most of these freely available "hazardous waste products", but if I have to play by bizarre "Green" rules then, so should foreign mining companies, whose contribution to the perceived problem is going to be several orders of magnitude greater!
That's not to say I approve of flushing these products, by the way. But the day is coming when you'll have to account for where the product has gone and will have to pay for any discrepancy between what was originally purchased and what you dispose of responsibly and that, I'm afraid, is going too far!

Duncan