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Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.

Posted by Richard Ellis 
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Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
02 January, 2019 09:17
Rob,

The PDF of that issue (Autumn 2018) isn't on line yet but I've attached a copy of the relevant page.

Best Wishes,

Colin,
Editor, IWN
ElectricVandalism.pdf
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
02 January, 2019 10:42
The VAST majority of boaters do not cruise in winter and have their boat in a marina connected to shore power. If I decide to cruise in winter my engine generates all the power I need. I have a 5kw Eberspacher air heater and a 5kw water heater,a pure sine wave inverter and a bank of 8 deep cycle traction batteries ,this allows me to sit on a jetty for approx 3 days before I need to start the engine or jenny (which I rarely use). I thank WI for supplying the basics to allow me to cruise. I do not expect them to supply the comforts. We cry about all the essential repairs and upkeep that WI have to contend with but don't think about where the money comes from. WI budget is not everlasting and wherever they can save a few Euro to spend on the essentials is good news. The bottom line is if you want the comforts then pay for them yourself as I do
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
03 January, 2019 22:11
Hi Drew,
Good to hear that you also enjoy and appreciate the joy of the occasional Winter cruise, there is nothing as beautiful as the a pure flat calm lake on a crisp frosty morning.

Like yourself Drew I also have a permanent marina mooring for which I am happy to pay for. Also, whilst the availability of shore power makes my live easier, I too like yourself am of reasonably independent means from a power perspective. When a few years ago I spent a whole Summer on Lough Erne I didn't once have to plug into shore power. However Drew I am also aware and conscious of the fact that not all boaters are fortunate enough to be in the position that you and I are in. The term "boaters" covers a very broad spectrum of size and means. I am thinking particularly of those who are legitimately availing of WIs winter mooring and have paid their fee in the belief that they would have shore power for dehumidifiers & heaters as has been the practice in previous years. These legitimate boaters are willing to do exactly as you suggest ie "willing to pay for their comforts" by paying whatever price WI feels it needs to set per unit. However this is the very facility has been withdrawn this year.
I cannot help thinking that if an entrepreneurially minded person had access to a bunch of boaters who are happy to leave 1-2Kw heaters running for extended periods that they may see this as a means to make money rather than be a potential cost.
Like it or not electricity on pontoons is here to stay with the hire industry also becoming increasingly dependent on it, it is only a matter of time before we will see a number of electrically propelled hire boats on the system, so WI will need to find ways of providing this service via a means that cannot be easily tampered with. I believe interim increased security can be retrofitted to existing bollards whist a program of rolling out more secure bollards could be a longer term project. Judging by the number of people continually availing of the existing power points I cannot understand how it cannot be made to turn a profit or at least be cost neutral.

Least there be any misunderstanding here Drew, I have no time for those that abuse the system and believe that the full weight of the law should be applied where theft and criminal damage is found to have occurred.


In Summary, I am just requesting the continuation of an existing service, for which people are willing to pay WI's set fees......

Rgds
Richard Ellis


Virginia Lady
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
03 January, 2019 23:27
I have been told one of the methods of stealing power which would require major expense to rectify. I have passed this info on to WI. Colin posted earlier on the costs of supplying power by WI. It is probably worthwhile in summer months. If you factor in the number of boaters who cruise in winter and who overnight would be very small. Add in maintenance costs and the theft which would be much higher in winter. You don't need to be an accountant to know it just doesn't stack up. As I said before when cruising all day your alternator is doing its job. Using a Genny in winter wont annoy the neighbors there wont be any.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
07 January, 2019 10:51
I'm wondering what members feel about the water being cut off?
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
07 January, 2019 12:45
Quote:
Angie
I'm wondering what members feel about the water being cut off?

Presume it helps minimise frost damage over the cold winter months and therefore avoids water leaks, leaving the infrastructure in good order for the following summer season when boat traffic resume and the tourists return, with a side effect that it possibly discourages long term harbour hogging, or live aboard activity in unsuitable locations over the winter (eg: lack of refuse handling, foul waste disposal, etc). Water traffic for all intense purposes ceases over the winter so I don't have an issue with actions designed to preserve the infrastructure and avoid costs of possible winter damage, as long as its back on in the spring when traffic restarts.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
07 January, 2019 13:14
Will have to take issue with Noel regarding winter boating. I would be a regular user of the waterways year round, as are many others.
Here in Leitrim Village I have seen several boats going out at weekends over the past months, travelling to Carrick-on-Shannon, Cootehall, Jamestown.
While it may be prudent to shut off supply during periods of extreme cold weather it hardly seems necessary to do so for several months. If pipework has been laid at sufficient depth and properly lagged at standpipes and taps it should cope with our average winter temperatures.
Regards,
Phil

Tm53
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
07 January, 2019 22:08
Quote:
Tillerman53
Will have to take issue with Noel regarding winter boating. I would be a regular user of the waterways year round, as are many others.
Here in Leitrim Village I have seen several boats going out at weekends over the past months, travelling to Carrick-on-Shannon, Cootehall, Jamestown

On that topic, quite a few boats not in "Hibernation" we had a lovely run over to Terryglass and up to Portumna last weekend and even on that short run spotted two other boats on the move.

Rgds
Richard Ellis


Virginia Lady
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
12 January, 2019 09:53
Hmmm! Two traverses of Lough Derg as early as last September and we saw not one single other vessel on the move. In the early days we did a lot of winter boating, but early enthusiasm was subsequently moderated by practicality and need for comfort (ie warmth and dry). Now we are strictly May to September. Aside from winter weather and sea state on the large loughs, there is nobody else about to socialise with, the usual summer spots become dark dreary ghost spots during the winter. For overnight cruises we tend to anchor out rather than use harbours or marinas, but winter weather is less conducive to anchoring out over night on some beauty spots on Lough Derg, too damp and far too cold. smiling smiley It's meant to be pleasurable and fun after all not a successful endurance. Water or electricity cut off wouldn't affect us anyway as we only take on water at our home marina berth, and domestic battery system produces enough power to do everything we need on the boat so no need to plug in to 220v. Even at marina we often don't plug in to minimise corrosion of stern gear and avoid wearing out anodes. Batteries only seem to need a charge top up once a month or so.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
13 January, 2019 22:56
It pays to listen to logic. One should think with ones head,their feet are for walking or dancing.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
15 January, 2019 23:39
Hi Drew,
I’m a firm believer in logic, both from a philosophical and technical perspective. However, for a logical output to be valid all relevant inputs should have been considered. In my opinion your argument is lacking recognition of a number of inputs.

-We are led to believe that the root of this problem is thieving of electricity from WI. The suspension of power will not solve the problem. We can be assured that come the Summer those same rogues will be back stealing electricity and damaging WI infrastructure. WI should tackle the root cause of this by pursuing the regular perpetrators to prosecution, thereby making an example of them in the same way as the lifting of a small number of boats in the Summer had a much wider positive knock-on effect on harbour hogger behaviour. In addition, an improved securing of access to the bollard innards and rewriting of the programming for the card readers would serve as an effective interim measure until such time as the inevitable swap out to newer more secure infrastructure can be implemented.

-If WI wish to get the most out of their assets they need to secure them against theft and maximise the amount of use they get, ie capitalise on the desire of a significant number of boaters to pay for electricity in the normally low earning off-season.

-If as an earlier contributor stated, WI are at best breaking even or actually making a loss the above two points are even more important. However I would find it worrying if any commercial organisation would(in a captive market) be pricing their product as to make a loss.

-There has been a long standing practice of boaters using Winter moorings for the overwintering of their vessels. Traditionally this has included the provision of power. Are this group of IWAI members and WI customers to be ignored?

-Similarly there are a number of legitimate winter mooring paying liveaboards who are being seriously inconvenienced by this move. I am aware of a number of them who are not “in the first flush of youth” , I am quite sure there will be a degree of hardship experienced in those cases as the Winter weather gradually kicks in.

-If WI believe this is a means of flushing out of the system some the more undesirable hoggers (note: I have no hard evidence to that effect) this would be another case of not tackling the root of the problem, but instead taking a shotgun approach and affecting a much wider group of users than the core culprits. I believe this strategy may have the effect of throwing out the baby with the bathwater and if taken to its logical conclusion may result in bleak empty harbours during the Winter season.

Drew, like yourself none of the above affect me very much from a personal perspective, I am relatively self-sufficient from a power perspective, I certainly wouldn’t relish the idea of spending a Winter on board a boat and my winter mooring is in a paid for marina. However, I do not sit in judgement of those who chose to live in the way set out above (providing of course they are paying the appropriate mooring fees and electricity charges). In whatever small way possible I am trying to make a case to defend the needs of that minority category of waterways user. I think if we are to judge the requirement for waterside services solely on the needs of those who only boat during the high season and store away their boats in the winter, we are guilty of unjust exclusion and an “I’m alright Jack” attitude. The following quotation, “Waterways Ireland, managing and promoting the inland waterways for the benefit of all…" is taken from their website and I would like to think they will sometime soon act on that very laudable sentiment and restore the provision of electricity service where there is a demand by their customers for it.
Similarly I would like to think that the IWAI leadership will take on board the need to represent all of its members and at the right time and in the right place make the appropriate representations to WI to have services restored.
On a side issue Drew, I suspect you and I are very unlikely to ever see eye to eye on this topic, but I would like to think that such discussions could still be held in a civilised manner . I don’t know you and I don’t think you know me, so any comments by either of us on the other use of our heads, or for that matter dancing ability! might I think be a tad uninformed/inappropriate smiling smiley

Rgds
Richard Ellis


Virginia Lady



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/01/2019 07:16 by Richard Ellis.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
16 January, 2019 11:08
Well put, Richard. Totally agree with you, we need to be more outspoken about creeping restrictions whether they impinge on ourselves or not. The root of the the problem lies in a reluctance at the executive level in WI to use the legal options open to them to prosecute the few, but frequent, offenders who cause trouble for the rest of us.
I became acutely aware of this policy, or rather lack of policy, recently regarding an incident which I will not elaborate on here as it may yet be pursued.
There is no point in WI drawing up byelaws and issuing notices if the executive and their legal advisors are not going to take any action against serious offenders. If IWAI genuinely represents all boaters than it's time to lobby for proper enforcement of the rules, which means we all have to be willing to formalise complaints.
Regards,
Phil

Tm53
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
17 January, 2019 22:36
A few ideas from me in Australia, an occasional user of your waterways.


I thank Colin for providing me with the PDF which didn't actually cover what I thought it was going to. I am thinking that part of the bigger picture here is being missed or at least not being raised. Maybe it has been covered and I've just missed it, so then I apologise. Whilst I note the manner in which Colin has raised the costing for electricity, I still think there is an accountant sitting in WI with an open Excel spread sheet, one of the columns for Damages to Property and another titled Electricity Theft. Both with ever increasing balances.

Coming from one of the driest countries in the world and having boated in many countries, I have found the provision of electricity and water is certainly a privilege. From my experience, damage and theft does not always occur in many places, if at all, possibly mainly due to positive intervention by human beings. Whether it be staffed marinas or areas in heavily populated regions, or any other reason, but I would suggest those quieter areas will be hardest hit due to reduced chance of detection. I have read the comments by many within this post and it certainly raises questions in my mind about what people other than WI are actually doing to help or contribute to resolving this problem. I raise the following questions, not in their order for any particular reasons but I would hope it gives some readers something to think about.

1. How many people have been reported or arrested by the police for property damage/theft of electricity/water to the WI property? If low in numbers, what is the reason for that? How can that be improved? Do WI provide statistics or maps advising problem areas?
2. Do Neighbourhood Watch type schemes operate in any areas or those with continuing problems? If so, how well run are they, how effective are they, what are their crime rates? What lessons can be learnt from successfully run programs of that kind?
3. How many court cases have resulted in successful prosecutions? And costs awarded to the victim, whether it be a boat owner or WI? Why have court cases not be successful? What are the reasons that WI does not instigate legal proceedings in particular cases? What is their legal advice for not doing so?
4. How many times have the police in the relevant areas been advised (AT THE TIME) that alleged offences are being committed, whether it be Property Damage or Theft of any kind?
5. Our legal systems are probably similar to a degree, so how many people have provided police with video evidence or still photographs of a person/s damaging property/theft/theft of electricity?
6. How many people have attended court to give evidence?
7. How many people believe that if they provide video/photographic evidence of an offence in action that they may not be required to provide a statement or attend court to give evidence?
9. How many people don't mind doing the reporting but want to remain anonymous and not have their identify revealed, possibly due to repercussions? How many people think a prosecution can still proceed without them attending court? How many people think that video footage they took is going to be suitable for the police, the court, stand up to the scrutiny of a defence solicitor? How many people don't care, don't want to get involved, think that WI will sort it out?
10. How many people think having a 'quiet word with WI' will result in a better or more timely chance of police action and successful prosecution than phoning the police direct, where there may (obviously depending on availability at the time) a better opportunity to have immediate action?
11. How do the authorities (WI,Police) provide information on how to rectify the problem of Property Damage and Theft? Crime prevention programs etc as covered above?

My list of questions could go on, but I suggest people may be getting where I am coming from. I would have thought the idea was all about timely reporting, early detection, quick action by the police, successful prosecutions, crime prevention, education, all in a positive effort to act as a deterrent for those wrong-doers.

One of my suggestions was going to be better designed infrastructure against vandalism and theft, but that was covered by someone else.

Again, maybe I have missed it but has there been any consideration about an article or series of articles being written by various people within the different stages of the legal system eg police, prosecutors and defence lawyers to explain what is actually required by your legal system to address this matter? Do readers truly know how your legal system operates regarding the gathering and presentation of evidence, or the lengths a defence solicitor will go to represent his client? I suggest some or many of the readers are armchair experts or think they have a good idea of legal systems based on TV viewing, but in reality have no idea what WI/Police are required to do in an effort to address prosecutions and subsequently recouping money through the courts for the damage/theft. Yes, it is easy to suggest that someone has plugged their power cord into a power supply and has manipulated the supply mechanism, but what is involved in actually proving it in court.

I suppose it is easy for the users of the waterways (which includes myself from Australia) to think there is an endless supply of money to cover this infrastructure, but unless you possess a good knowledge of how such organisations as WI etc operate then it can be easy to be critical about the cost cutting etc.

I'm sure my comments will throw the cat amongst the pigeons and I'll possibly be turned back when I fly into Heathrow Airport later this year, but some of my comments will need to be addressed at some time in the future.

Regards,

Bob
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
18 January, 2019 18:46
Quote:
Robert (Bob)
A few ideas from me in Australia, an occasional user of your waterways.

I thank Colin for providing me with the PDF which didn't actually cover what I thought it was going to. I am thinking that part of the bigger picture here is being missed or at least not being raised. Maybe it has been covered and I've just missed it, so then I apologise. Whilst I note the manner in which Colin has raised the costing for electricity, I still think there is an accountant sitting in WI with an open Excel spread sheet, one of the columns for Damages to Property and another titled Electricity Theft. Both with ever increasing balances.

Coming from one of the driest countries in the world and having boated in many countries, I have found the provision of electricity and water is certainly a privilege. From my experience, damage and theft does not always occur in many places, if at all, possibly mainly due to positive intervention by human beings. Whether it be staffed marinas or areas in heavily populated regions, or any other reason, but I would suggest those quieter areas will be hardest hit due to reduced chance of detection. I have read the comments by many within this post and it certainly raises questions in my mind about what people other than WI are actually doing to help or contribute to resolving this problem. I raise the following questions, not in their order for any particular reasons but I would hope it gives some readers something to think about.

1. How many people have been reported or arrested by the police for property damage/theft of electricity/water to the WI property? If low in numbers, what is the reason for that? How can that be improved? Do WI provide statistics or maps advising problem areas?
2. Do Neighbourhood Watch type schemes operate in any areas or those with continuing problems? If so, how well run are they, how effective are they, what are their crime rates? What lessons can be learnt from successfully run programs of that kind?
3. How many court cases have resulted in successful prosecutions? And costs awarded to the victim, whether it be a boat owner or WI? Why have court cases not be successful? What are the reasons that WI does not instigate legal proceedings in particular cases? What is their legal advice for not doing so?
4. How many times have the police in the relevant areas been advised (AT THE TIME) that alleged offences are being committed, whether it be Property Damage or Theft of any kind?
5. Our legal systems are probably similar to a degree, so how many people have provided police with video evidence or still photographs of a person/s damaging property/theft/theft of electricity?
6. How many people have attended court to give evidence?
7. How many people believe that if they provide video/photographic evidence of an offence in action that they may not be required to provide a statement or attend court to give evidence?
9. How many people don't mind doing the reporting but want to remain anonymous and not have their identify revealed, possibly due to repercussions? How many people think a prosecution can still proceed without them attending court? How many people think that video footage they took is going to be suitable for the police, the court, stand up to the scrutiny of a defence solicitor? How many people don't care, don't want to get involved, think that WI will sort it out?
10. How many people think having a 'quiet word with WI' will result in a better or more timely chance of police action and successful prosecution than phoning the police direct, where there may (obviously depending on availability at the time) a better opportunity to have immediate action?
11. How do the authorities (WI,Police) provide information on how to rectify the problem of Property Damage and Theft? Crime prevention programs etc as covered above?

My list of questions could go on, but I suggest people may be getting where I am coming from. I would have thought the idea was all about timely reporting, early detection, quick action by the police, successful prosecutions, crime prevention, education, all in a positive effort to act as a deterrent for those wrong-doers.

One of my suggestions was going to be better designed infrastructure against vandalism and theft, but that was covered by someone else.

Again, maybe I have missed it but has there been any consideration about an article or series of articles being written by various people within the different stages of the legal system eg police, prosecutors and defence lawyers to explain what is actually required by your legal system to address this matter? Do readers truly know how your legal system operates regarding the gathering and presentation of evidence, or the lengths a defence solicitor will go to represent his client? I suggest some or many of the readers are armchair experts or think they have a good idea of legal systems based on TV viewing, but in reality have no idea what WI/Police are required to do in an effort to address prosecutions and subsequently recouping money through the courts for the damage/theft. Yes, it is easy to suggest that someone has plugged their power cord into a power supply and has manipulated the supply mechanism, but what is involved in actually proving it in court.

I suppose it is easy for the users of the waterways (which includes myself from Australia) to think there is an endless supply of money to cover this infrastructure, but unless you possess a good knowledge of how such organisations as WI etc operate then it can be easy to be critical about the cost cutting etc.

I'm sure my comments will throw the cat amongst the pigeons and I'll possibly be turned back when I fly into Heathrow Airport later this year, but some of my comments will need to be addressed at some time in the future.

Regards,

Bob

Hi Bob, you'll get as far as Shannon and will be turned back there.. smiling smiley

Seriously, a good and thought-provoking post..

John
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
18 January, 2019 19:32
Hi Rob,
Doubt you'll be turned back at Heathrow, what with you being from the "colonies".......
However, depending on the outcome of the Big Bunfight in London, you may find it necessary to bribe the border guards at Derrylin when they board your vessel. Probably best to pick up a few bottles of Bushmills and a carton or two of cigs just in case. Any problems just give us a call and we'll send a UNHCR team to get you out.
Regards,
Phil

Tm53
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
22 January, 2019 22:57
Hi again Rob,
You probably weren't aware that this forum goes to "read only" at 24.00 every night. This is because the forum moderators, who vet all content before it posts, need their beauty sleep. A bit awkward for those on the opposite side of the globe.
Guess you'll have to become a night owl.
Regards,
Phil.

Tm53
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
24 January, 2019 08:44
Yeah thanks Phil, gathered that.

Regards,

Bob
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
19 April, 2019 12:44
What?
What is happening over there? I made my comment 3 months ago and no person has been critical about my comments? I thought I would have received multiple adverse comments about my comments from afar, but not. Must be a lot of people very restrained.



Regards,

Bob
.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
20 April, 2019 18:23
Quote:
Robert (Bob)
What?
What is happening over there? I made my comment 3 months ago and no person has been critical about my comments? I thought I would have received multiple adverse comments about my comments from afar, but not. Must be a lot of people very restrained.



Regards,

Bob
.

I thought your original post was a very good one, nothing to be critical of whatsoever as far as I could read. With smartphones nowadays collecting evidence is very easy to do discreetly and pass on to the relevant authority. Police are the guardians of our society but as a society we all collectively bear some responsibility for preventing and/or reporting law breaking.
Re: Public moorings, Electrical and water supply now disconnected.
26 April, 2019 22:45
Thanks for your supporting comments, just don't lose sight of the fact I was trying to get across in my original comments, that possibly for a successful prosecution in court in your country the taker of the video footage will have to provide a statement and evidence in court as to the who/why/what/where/when of the taking of the video.

A good Defence solicitor will not permit anonymous footage to go unchallenged as to its authenticity etc.

Which is why I suggested some education on the various phases of the whole process to enlighten people further on why action will not be taken in some circumstances. If anyone was to doubt my thoughts on the matter, why not run my comments past WI to see if there is any substance to what I have written.

Regards,

Bob

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